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Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:38 amby Bongobilly
I was wondering did Mongo Santamaria always tune his conga a little on the high side? Wonder what key that was in. Or how did Ray Barretto, Ponco Sanchez, and other hard hitting conga player's tune there drum.
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:46 pmby bongosnotbombs
In the liner notes of Ray Barretto's album and "Homage to Art" is says Ray applied what he admired in Chano Pozo's playing.
"The pitch of Pozo's drum was always low, adding to the timbre established by the bass and the bass drum"
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:30 pmby JohnnyConga
The pitch of Chano's congas was Low because he had only 'heat im up" congas..non tuneable drums..so after awhile the pitch would drop...everyone tunes differently these days...because as conga drummers we are now more musically/rhythmically educated...where as we used to tune to any pitch as long as it sounded different from the other drums...but now we understand 'intervals' which was not in our vocabulary before...Mongo tuned his drums accordingly to his ears and taste...Tommy Lopez, Frankie Rodriguez, and Milton Cardona all tuned "down" and you can hear it on the recordings they made, especially with Milton on Willie Colon recordings and Tommy with Eddie...remember also that in that time 50's 60's everyone only played 2 conga drums unlike today from 3 to 5 congas and 4 is now the norm..."JC" Johnny Conga...PS I was trying to use 3 congas in latin bands back in 66 67 68 and not one band leader would let me play 3 congas...wasn't until the mid 70's where 3 drums became common with all forms of music...from rock to salsa....
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:50 pmby Anonimo
POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:02 pmby niallgregory
Its very easy to play and have very melodic suitable tuned drums in any situation these days . 3 congas work great in a salsa / latin jazz situation imo . If the player has a good ear and isnt using a 3rd drum as window dressing it adds alot to a groups sound .
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:13 amby jorge
leedy2 wrote:with all do respect when playing with 3, 4 congas (no hay Afinque)
Leedy2, I agree with you that lots of players who play 3 or more drums lack cadencia y afinque. But that is a characteristic of the players, not the number of drums. There is a tendency for some inexperienced players to jump to 3 or 4 drums before they have mastered playing with swing and cadencia on one or 2 drums, and they just keep on playing raggedy like that or get worse, substituting the novelty of multiple different tones for accurate timing and swing. Even so, there are definitely players who play 3 or more drums well who play con mucho afinque. Examples are Juan Bravo of Orquesta Ritmo Oriental, Daniel Ponce in his early recordings with Puntilla (before he tried playing "salsa"), Joel Driggs with early Rumbavana and Van Van. Even Giovanni Hidalgo and Anga, who are (were) all over 5 drums with tremendous chops, could play afinque on 3 -5 drums when they chose to. But all these guys mastered the basics on congas and/or bata before they went to 3 or more congas. Regarding Mongo's tuning, I don't think he tuned his conga particularly high, just high enough to get that killer seco.
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:29 amby caballoballo
[quote="leedy2]
In todays bands as we talked recent every conga ,timbales ,bongos player want to display their talent and does not realize all the noise that they are making.
Oh Yes leedy, Lately I have seen some young bands down here where every musician wants to play louder than the others making a big mess of noise. Last Friday at Latin Roots Club even with ear plugs I went out of the club until the band finish playing their set, I just could not take it any more. It is not who plays louder, it is the afinque, tightness and cadence what counts. Also I do not see many bands here where the Conguero uses more than 2 Congas and I am alway either playing or doing my part time Salsa DJ . Carrying 2 Congas around is enough of a job,imagine at 3AM, also playing more than 2 congas is not going to make you sound better or play better. I have seen Sonora Ponceña Conguero ( Wilito) play on stage with only one 12.5 and he made it sound like he was playing with 2 or 3.
[quote="jorge"]But all these guys mastered the basics on congas and/or bata before they went to 3 or more congas.
I agreed with you 100% Jorge .Yes ,that the whole true, need to master first then add. It is like saying learn how to walk first before running.
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:49 pmby Anonimo
POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:27 pmby RitmoBoricua
I preferred only (2) congas for most based "Son" Salsa music. Few players can get away with playing 3/4/5 congas and not diluting the rhythm too much, Patato and Candido comes to mind and them (2) played more in a melodic way. But generally speaking I believe that playing more than (2) and maybe (3) conga drums just dilutes "el afinque y masacote" big time. Same thing with all this independance stuff and trying to play timbales with one hand while playing congas with the other hand and then one foot playing clave and the other "bombo" it just waterdowns the rhythm big time.
Now a cat like Jerry Gonzalez with Fort Apache sounds real good playing 4/5 conga drums but then again they play more in a vein what I called "Jazz-Latin" with lots of rumba influence. No doubt you got to master one conga before you move onto playing (2) drums. You got to crawl and pay your dues before you can run fast. To me "afinque y masacote" is numero (1).
When you have a setting where you have congas, bongos and timbal in the rhythm section I think (2) congas drums is all that is required, "Afinque Y Masacote" is a must in that kind of setting. Is my opinion that when the conga player adds more than (2) drums in this kind of setting , the conga player increases the chances of stepping on somebody else's toes and playing "cruzao". My (2) cents.
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:53 pmby niallgregory
leedy2 wrote:jorge wrote:leedy2 wrote:with all do respect when playing with 3, 4 congas (no hay Afinque)
Leedy2, I agree with you that lots of players who play 3 or more drums lack cadencia y afinque. But that is a characteristic of the players, not the number of drums. There is a tendency for some inexperienced players to jump to 3 or 4 drums before they have mastered playing with swing and cadencia on one or 2 drums, and they just keep on playing raggedy like that or get worse, substituting the novelty of multiple different tones for accurate timing and swing. Even so, there are definitely players who play 3 or more drums well who play con mucho afinque. Examples are Juan Bravo of Orquesta Ritmo Oriental, Daniel Ponce in his early recordings with Puntilla (before he tried playing "salsa"), Joel Driggs with early Rumbavana and Van Van. Even Giovanni Hidalgo and Anga, who are (were) all over 5 drums with tremendous chops, could play afinque on 3 -5 drums when they chose to. But all these guys mastered the basics on congas and/or bata before they went to 3 or more congas. Regarding Mongo's tuning, I don't think he tuned his conga particularly high, just high enough to get that killer seco.
Examples are Juan Bravo of Orquesta Ritmo Oriental, Daniel Ponce in his early recordings with Puntilla (before he tried playing "salsa"), Joel Driggs with early Rumbavana and Van Van. Even Giovanni Hidalgo and Anga, who are (were) all over 5 drums with tremendous chops, could play afinque on 3 -5 drums
jorge
All of these guys that you mention are what is called free spirit musicians or as know (Latin Jazz)and they are very good at what they do.They play more effect's, so as the they play the carry a note to an other drum like mathematic's that you carry a number. When you put them to play salsa or any music related to this they are lost and let me explain lost. Not that they play wrong they can not play with 2 drum to be tight with rest of band's percussion section or better to say they are playing stress.Here I posted a video with Giovanni you can see that he is lost with out 3rd drum he was forced to play here with 2 drum.Note as you hear this video note he miss or changes beat around that's is his confusion look for 3rd drum it not timing. And this happens to all that want to play with a 3rd drum when face to play salsa aplomada or to say tight, afincado .On video you see Johnny tell gio stay there and he is also stressed playing bell note.Mongo had a very unusual way of playing and tuned his drum a bit high and that was more due to way that he played ,his hands were small and fat so when he hit drums the bounce of drum and that was why you hear loud slap and drum sound low .
Cant see the video that you posted with giovanni in it , but i look forward very much to seeing him " lost " . The guy is the greatest player we have ever seen and can amaze on one drum or 5 . He has played many many straight ahead dates over the years and has never been lost . He is however primarily hired as a soloist in more jazz oriented groups , maybe he was just sitting in with this group and didnt know the arrangement very well .It happens to everyone .
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:36 pmby Omelenko1
Mongo tuned his congas to taste, sort of on the low side. I remember some years back a guy they call "Pulgarcito" tuned Mongo's congas really high before the gig. When Mongo sat down he started complaining that the congas were tuned like bongos. Mongo was to me the tastiest tumbador of all, but when I came to tuning, he was very unorthodox. He would basically just tune the macho seating down and maybe just 2 or 3 lugs instead of going once around all the lugs, he did that on my congas a number of times and it would irritate me, but I never said anything to him. Mongo in his day hit the drum so hard that he would piss blood as a result of his banging and slaping. Mongo's sound was very unique and the tastiest when it came to afinque gordo y mazacote.
Dario
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:46 pmby Tone
can you define Afinque e Mazacote exactly please?
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:09 pmby Anonimo
POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:17 pmby RitmoBoricua
I do not think there is a proper translation in English for this slangs. A very rough translation could be to play with lots of taste and swing in the pocket as a tight unit, (no overplaying). I guess when you come from within the tradition you take understanding this terms and what to listen for, for granted .
Re: Mongo's conga tunning
Posted:
Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:32 pmby caballoballo
[quote="Tone"]can you define Afinque e Mazacote exactly please?
Tone, to me Afinque is during the montuno part of the theme where the rhytm section Bongo Bell, Timbal Bell, Congas tumbao,Piano montuneo and Bass are playing straight and flawlessly, no riff ,just straight tumbao in sync with the clave so the dancers or bystanders could swing to the theme. Mazacote is kind of hard to explain but could be interpret as the feeling apply to a theme or themes when they are execute flawlessly including the solos,lyrics ,ect,ect. . Could also be when you leave the stage on fire because of the way the band performed.