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Dear members,
I have a question about Bembe. I have noticed that many resources claim that Bembe is a 6/8 a rhythm. However, other sources, (which I believe, but not sure, go further back to the Yoruba roots), claim that it is definitely a 12/8 rhythm (1 2 3 2 2 3 3 2 3 4 2 3). Personally, in bembe I very much feel the 4, especially when I hear the clave/bell patern, in relation to the conga’s. I also noticed that many traditional west-african rhythms do have a 12/8 rhythmic feel.

Therefore my question is if there can be given an absolute truth in relation to the rhythmic structure (6/8 or 12/8), or if it is always subject to different personal interpretations of different people?
I hope anyone can help me out! Thanks!

Alan

How do you count your 6/8?

I count it twice as "open", which for Bembe would mean 6 or 12 pulses within 1 clave

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - = 6/8

x - x - x x - x - x - x = Bembe clave

1 2 3 2 2 3 2 3 4 2 3 = 12/8


Hope its clear..! thanks

Alan

I can't imagine why it would matter how you choose to write the rhythm. You still have to hear it and feel it before you can play it. You could even write it in 4/4 if you wanted, but I can't see any advantage to that either.

jorge wrote:I can't imagine why it would matter how you choose to write the rhythm.

Jorge,
If the goal is to represent the rhythm on paper in the most accurate way, then how one choses to write it matters. Put aside for the moment the many limitations inherent in representing music on paper. The question is—what is the best choice as far as time signature?

If clave is indeed the key, then clave is the musical period—the complete basic phrase made up of the two smaller contrasting phrases (or cells), one antecedent and the other consequent. Using this logic then, clave (or in the case of bembe, the standard bell pattern) should be represented in a single measure of 12/8. The basic caja (lead) part should also be contained in a single measure of 12/8.

Alan,
6/8 and 12/8 are both compound duple-meters. 6/8 should be counted as: 1 + a 2 + a. 12/8 should be counted as: 1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a.

North Americans typically write bembe in 6/8, so that clave spans two measures. The practice of writing bembe in 6/8 comes from the conventions of writing jazz charts.

I predict that in North America and Europe writing bembe in 12/8 will eventually be the norm.
-David

Most Afro-Centric based music is primarily for dancing.

If you see any of the dances move to any Bembe, it's definitely 1..2..3..4.. (not a waltz or shuffle feel) Another strong indication that it's 12/8

Derbeno wrote:Most Afro-Centric based music is primarily for dancing.[...] Bembe, it's definitely 1..2..3..4

It's true that the dance steps in most cases indicate the main beats (metric structure). However, there is a very common step used with bembe/agbe and bata known by many as the "guiro step" that reverses the typical order. In that dance the feet step six times for every four moves of the torso. It's a very cool dance because the dancer's body is literally moving in a six-against-four pattern.

In some of the more elaborate choreography the dancer's feet may go from stepping four times per clave to six times and then back to four times. This does not mean though that the music goes from 12/8 to 6/4 and then back to 12/8. It's all 12/8.

By the way, just as 12/8 is the most accurate time signature for triple-pulse clave music, a single measure of 4/4 (16th notes = pulses) is the most accurate time signature for its duple-pulse correlative. The practice of writing clave in two measures of 4/4 (8th notes = pulses) comes from the conventions of writing jazz charts and contributes to misunderstanding the music's true metric structure.

I predict that in North America and Europe writing clave in a single measure of 4/4 will eventually be the norm. That's how it's done in my book and the Tomas Cruz books.
-David

Is it not actually possible to view a rhythm like bembe in a way that
each drum part is playing in a different but mathematically compatible
time signature?

The cachimbo repeating it's pattern every 3 beats and 4 times per clave.
the mula repeating it's pattern every 6 beats and 2 times per clave.
the caja repeating it's pattern every 12 beats and 1 time per clave.

bongosnotbombs wrote:Is it not actually possible to view a rhythm like bembe in a way that
each drum part is playing in a different but mathematically compatible
time signature?

It's possible to write the parts that way. That method of representation is called polymeter. It is not an accurate way to depict bembe or any other clave-based rhythm though. It's true that each of those parts accents (groups) the pulses in different ways. In European-based music accents often reinforce the metric structure. On the other hand, in African-based music accents often contradict the metric structure; the accents are usually contra-metric. In bembe the cachimbo reinforces the metric structure. However, the cachimbo is not even played in some arrangements of the rhythm.

Whether you are in triple-pulse (12/8) or duple-pulse (4/4) clave music, there is a single metric structure (four main beats). When you write the bembe caja and mula in 12/8 (instead of 6/4 or 3/4) you are correctly indicating that the drum part's accents are contra-metric.
-David

I learned Bembe among other rythms as 12/8. Big ol charts written out with 12 cells.

ugh!

While I was learning, I kept feeling the 4 pulses and just couldn't associate the written format to performing the notes. But once I learned the feel and not the notes of the short or long bell, it just synched up. I adopted the counting method of 1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a as David has pointed out.

Currently due to more of the 6/8 being pushed with modern music, I turned to the 2 bar feel of 1 + a 2 + a, as the pattern tends to go there.

T

David is 100% right.

But the result is highly unsastifying. I find writing very useful to remember things.
But when you look at a bembé chart, for example, it doesn't say anything visually. For a visual representation it is incredibly clunky to evoque what is actually happening. Unlike a map for a city or a drawing of a horse which are very good at giving you an idea of what you are talking about. For linear music as a Bach fugue, for example, it is a bit better.

I have tried playing with concentric circles which I thought where giving more of a hint. What else is out there that you guys found useful?

Tone wrote:I have tried playing with concentric circles which I thought where giving more of a hint.

I would love to see an example of this.

Tone wrote:... when you look at a bembé chart, for example, it doesn't say anything visually. [...] Unlike a map for a city...

It depends upon your familiarity with written music. When I first began playing congas I thought I was through with written music and didn't want to see another chart for the rest of my life. I hated reading music as I was much more comfortable learning "by ear." However, things changed and now I write down music a lot. A well written chart in the standard staff notation system will convey more specific information that any other system.
-David

bongosnotbombs wrote:

Tone wrote:I have tried playing with concentric circles which I thought where giving more of a hint.

I would love to see an example of this.

I represent many rhythms including clave in circular form in my book—The Clave Matrix. The six-against-four cross-rhythm is depicted with concentric circles. I also represent cross-rhythms and clave in geometric form.
-David

I predict that in North America and Europe writing clave in a single measure of 4/4 will eventually be the norm. That's how it's done in my book and the Tomas Cruz books. -David

Hi David,

first of all, congratulations for your excellent book. I'm about halfway through. I better write you privately for some explanations, if you don't mind.

I would like to know how you come to predict the eventual victory of the 4/4 - 12/8 - single measure form. I still find it much easier to oversee a two beat measure in cut time and read odd phrasings (with uneven amounts of bars) than to decipher a long 4/4 with a sixteenth-note jungle and count meter changes when a clave change occurs. I also find that the dual polarity of the clave is more evident in a two-bar notation.

There may only be two reasons why the 4 beat notation could make it: the predominance of Rock and Funk music which is written in this way, and the fact that someday everybody will own your book(s) and write their arrangements accordingly.

Applause,

Thomas