Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby davidpenalosa » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:30 am

Quinto Governor II wrote:1. Does the clave cycle begin on 1? 2. What is the practical definition of singing in clave, and what exactly is meant by "crossing the clave"?
[/quote]

1.
In clave-based folkloric music beat 1 is always the first stroke of the three-side. […] this is the point in musical time where the matrix is initiated, the moment of rhythmic “ignition.” At its most fundamental, the rhythmic progression of clave is an antecedent—consequent sequence of two opposing cells that span four beats. The first stroke of clave coincides with beat 1.

[…] From the perspective of the individual performer, the entrance point of a part may feel like the beginning of the cycle. Regardless of where a part enters though, the first stroke of clave is always “one”—the beginning of the cycle. All vocal and instrumental parts are understood and felt in relation to it.

2.
Cruzado—A pattern or phrase that is opposite from its correct alignment with clave is said to be “cruzado” (crossed) or, as the Cubans pronounce it “cruza’o.”

—quotes from my upcoming book "The Clave Matrix".
-David
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby burke » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:38 pm

Hopefully this won't be seen as too far off topic ... but lately I''ve found a conga coach who actually spent some serious time in Cuba. Over the last couple years I've started just trying to play in clave (at least conciously) and bought a metronome with son and rumba clave. Son wasn't to bad (with tumbao's). Rumba and playing guaguanco took an alarmingly long time. Recently I've been working at playing a couple of songo variations in clave.

First thing my new guy said was that I had to learn to play AND sing clave! Pattern is now repeating itself: I managed to sing son in a couple of painful days, now I'm in the middle of an epic stuggle with my shortcomings as I TRY to sing rumba clave and play guaguanco!

I think part of the difference between the two claves lies in the that when I play tumbao and sing my little clave song ("This ... was .... hard.....to ..do") the hand and word are hitting together. That feels natural. In rumba/guaguanco sometimes together/sometimes not and your're slipping parts of your little song in between the strokes.

Any how can any of you remember what it was like for you back when you were tryng to truely internalize your clave and play at the same time? Any hints?
David, will the new book come with some sort of clave injectable drug? That would be a big help and save me years of hard work and tears :D

Darrell
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby windhorse » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:10 pm

burke wrote:Any how can any of you remember what it was like for you back when you were tryng to truely internalize your clave and play at the same time? Any hints?
Darrell


Hi Darrell, I had to smile when I read your post! YES! I remember it like it was yesterday,, and now I'm back in that beginner-mind place again learning things like tapping my foot on downbeat during floreo on the Okonkolo - the small drum in bata. It's just different degrees and levels, but that state of struggling to get something you know is there, yet you're just slightly beyond the ability to fully comprehend - NEVER goes away! -- As long as you're still learning.... So, welcome to school!
I see my teachers struggle with new things occasionally when they are in the presence of someone who carries the knowledge beyond their scope.

So, to answer your question - you keep trying for short periods of time.. Drop it, and go back to it maybe 10 or 20 times a day. It's like a little mantra you carry around. Also, try writing it out, tapping it, singing clave in ANY song that you hear on a CD or radio.. Just anything to internalize what you're working on..
REally,, for most of these things it takes YEARS -- suddenly one day you've got it so well you can sing the clave while playing your part to show someone where the clave is in the song. But, by that time, you're struggling with something new. :twisted:
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby davidpenalosa » Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:49 pm

burke wrote:David, will the new book come with some sort of clave injectable drug? That would be a big help and save me years of hard work and tears :D Darrell


The first four chapters come with rhythmic exercises that will greatly aid you in getting clave and contrapuntal structures into your body. They start out very simple and basic and progress to more complex. As far as shortcuts, I have always believed that listening to the music is half as productive as practicing, so I suggest that you immerse yourself in the music by listening to it as much as possible.
-David
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby taikonoatama » Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:57 pm

Quinto Governor II wrote:I recall reading in a forum speaking about a musician trying to get an understanding of clave, from Mongo Santamaria, and Mongo's reply was " Either you feel clave or you don't " This statement may be interpreted in many ways, but if nothing else, it sums up the ambiguous nature of this subject.


jorge wrote:So how does a person LEARN to feel the clave? ... La universidad de la calle, it is not warm and fuzzy, but it works. ... All the intellectual and theoretical explanations may be nice for Juilliard trained music theorists and performers, but these explanations don't seem to produce percussionists who can play in clave.


My own journey to a deeper understanding of rumba clave (and in particular the "feel" part of that understanding) has been a long one combining "La universidad de la calle" (i.e., getting my clave-ass kicked repeatedly by players who really understand when it's played right or not) with a technical approach. For me, breaking things down to a technical level removed the mystery of what I was doing wrong. We all learn differently. If I had grown up listening to rumba this feel-thing likely wouldn't be an issue, but as an adult learning, essentially, a foreign language with a very specific, very nuanced timing, it was a real struggle to get right, and for me going technical on it is what finally worked. It's not an approach for everyone, admittedly, but it's just a tool - whatever works.

So I listened and listened and listened to a whole lot of rumba recordings, playing clave along with them, and went to lots of rumbas in the San Francisco Bay Area (lots of Cuban rumberos here, along with highly-skilled non-Cubans), got technical (see link below), analyzed my own clave with this technical/visual approach, made adjustments, practiced, hit la calle again, got my ass kicked again, hit the woodshed again, etc., and now I'm at least close. Not always 100% stone-cold locked in, but getting close to respectable at least.

Here's a page I put together that attempts to explain rumba clave using one technical/visual approach:

http://rumbaclave.blogspot.com/

James
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby Quinto Governor II » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:48 am

davidpenalosa wrote:

"In clave-based folkloric music beat 1 is always the first stroke of the three-side."

"The first stroke of clave coincides with beat 1."

Quinto Governor II wrote:

Does this mean folkloric music is always played in 3/2 rumba clave and never 2/3 rumba clave?

The only consistency I can grasp in the concept of clave, is a syncopated division of 2 bars, by a number of strokes, and where there is always a rest at the end of the the 2 bars. Sorry guys maybe I'm just a hopeless case. Some how I don't understand how, if clave is a sound musical principle, why can it be written in the compositions, whereby; musicians trained in music theory, and with the ability to read music, could simply follow it ?
Yambu
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby ABAKUA » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:54 am

Quinto Governor II wrote:Sorry guys maybe I'm just a hopeless case. Some how I don't understand how, if clave is a sound musical principle, why can it be written in the compositions, whereby; musicians trained in music theory, and with the ability to read music, could simply follow it ?


Its simple really...

Image


LOL sorry, couldnt resist! :lol: Just a personal innocent joke we have here with the newer non Latino guys who are new to the whole rumba & clave/feel vs count topic/approach.... No offence intended or implied brother.
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby davidpenalosa » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:33 am

Quinto Governor II wrote:1. Does this mean folkloric music is always played in 3/2 rumba clave and never 2/3 rumba clave?.. 2. if clave is a sound musical principle, why can it be written in the compositions, whereby; musicians trained in music theory, and with the ability to read music, could simply follow it ?


1.
"In a folkloric context, the 'one' is always the first beat of the three-side, but it’s not proper to say 'Everything is 3-2 in folkloric music.' The 3-2/2-3 concept is in no way a factor; neither African, nor Cuban folklorists use the concept or terminology. If a vocal or instrumental part begins on the two-side, it simply has entered halfway through the cycle.

[Clave-based popular music is another matter] [...] Because of clave’s binary nature, a chord progression is understood to begin in just one of two ways, either within the three-side or within the two-side. The first main beat of the chord progression is “one”. In popular music “one” can be on either side of clave, because the harmonic progression, rather than the rhythmic progression is the primary referent. Put simply—in popular music harmony trumps rhythm.

[...] In 2-3 music, harmony’s dominance makes the three-side feel like the consequent half of clave, rather than the first half. The two progressions (harmonic and rhythmic) are therefore opposed to each other and produce a type of contrary motion."—The Clave Matrix

2.
I think you meant to say: "if clave is a sound musical principle, why CAN"T it be written in the compositions." The answer is that it CAN be written down. Straight triple-pulse (6/8 or 12/8) rumba clave is played in abakua and straight duple-pulse (4/4) rumba clave is played in timba (Cuban "salsa").

In rumba and other folkloric genres, clave is often played with with a feel that is not practical for notation. (check out James' webpage on this: http://rumbaclave.blogspot.com/) Don't be intimidated by this elusive element of feel though. Acquiring it takes time. Afro-Cuban music is not the only music that has subtle qualities of expression, jazz and classical music do as well. A lot of music does.

For the most part, folkloric drum masters do not know how to explain their music in terms of theory. That's not how they relate to the music. Many musicians who play popular music do have some training in Western music theory, but they prefer to leave "feel" ambiguous and undefined. It is odd in a way that some who speak of clave's omnipotence will at the same time refuse to define what clave is. That just intimidates and frustrates students, leaving them feeling on the outside of this whole thing.
-David
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby ABAKUA » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:53 am

David, I love and respect the way you are able to bridge the gap between those of us schooled by being raised within the music and those who come from other backgrounds and embrace and study it.

Respect. 8)
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby davidpenalosa » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:16 am

Thanks man. It's gratifying to know that my words make a connection after I sent them into cyber-space.
-David
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby TONE74 » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:39 pm

In my experience what has helped me is listening not just to the congas in the music but also the other instruments such as bass and keyboard (these two specially). When you start to know their accents in relation to clave it becomes way easier to find your place. I'm not speaking as a musician because I don't play with a band and still consider myself a beginner. But when I listen to every detail in the music and play is easier to get in the spot.
What I've had problems with is rumba clave. I grew up with traditional son and hearing my uncles play guajiro music so when I start to play rumba clave I feel a pull to son clave. That 3rd strike on the 3 side is my weakness. I guess I need to put in my time en la calle also. While playing the drums is not though.
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby guarachon63 » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:59 pm

David, where will your book be available? I can't seem to find it online anywhere yet. Usually things that are imminent are available for pre-order. Very much looking forward to it.
===================================
http://esquinarumbera.blogspot.com
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby davidpenalosa » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:25 pm

guarachon63 wrote:David, where will your book be available?


The release date is Sept. 1. You will be able to get it at www.bembe.com, Amazon and other online sources, as well as book and music stores. I'll be posting an official announcement soon. Thanks for your interest.
-David
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby Quinto Governor II » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:09 am

Ok guys checked out Johnny Congas' video on clave at Expert Village It is clear to a certain extant for me , however; I still have questions.

Son Clave:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S94wquKDHaQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amB8tBIOb-g

I see that 2/3 son clave starts not on 1 but on 2 in sync with the slap of tumbao, and 3/2 son clave has the clave starting on 1 in sync with the heel stroke of clave. When I listen to salsa, I place both claves' over the song and almost always, either one fits to me. So, when the clave is not being played in a song, how do you determine which direction the song is in, and what do you line your tumbao up with?


Rumba Clave:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EutyzjvCjzA

Why is this pattern called 3/2 ? the division sounds to me like 2 stokes a rest then 3 strokes, If its based on where the strokes fall in the 2 bars, I don't understand the count that's being use. When I count straight quarter notes, I get 2 in the first bar and 3 in the second.
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby davidpenalosa » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:13 am

Quinto Governor II wrote:Why is this pattern called 3/2 ? the division sounds to me like 2 stokes a rest then 3 strokes, If its based on where the strokes fall in the 2 bars, I don't understand the count that's being use. When I count straight quarter notes, I get 2 in the first bar and 3 in the second.


It's true that the grouping of rumba clave is in a sense, two strokes followed by three strokes. However, if you write rumba clave in two measures, you will see that the third stroke is still within the first half (first measure) of the pattern. So, in the first half you have three strokes and in the second half you have two strokes. In a popular music context then, when the pattern is played as shown below, it is called 3-2 rumba clave. I'll let Johnny Conga answer your first question.

|| X . . X . . . X | . . X . X . . . ||

-David
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