congaplace.com

I've come across different resources explaining the influences in Cuban rumba, particularly the
presence of the diana at the beginning of the song being related to Moorish influences in Spain
and the structure of the decima coming from a Spanish literature form.

Recently I have read a book called Gypsies and Flamenco where it describes the gypsies having
originated in India, and traveled to Spain with the Moors. The vocal syllables related to the diana
is a contribution of the gypsies in Spain, where it continues to exist in flamenco, which is largely
influenced by and related to gypsies in that country, and then this could have possibly traveled from Spain to Cuba
and made it's way to the afro-cuban rumba in that country.

So could rumba contain influences from Africa, Spain, the Moorish Empire and India?

I personally find this appropriate as gypsies have a long history of being oppressed in other countries, and the
expression of the experience in their music could be something original rumberos in Cuba could relate to.
This last bit is just personal conjecture on my part.

bongosnotbombs wrote:

So could rumba contain influences from Africa, Spain, the Moorish Empire and India?

Quinto Governor II

It would help if the author could produce evidence of the art form in Indian culture, IMO to substantiate his claim, otherwise; I'd be incline to just attribute it to Spanish culture, especially; if the Gypsies have a lengthy presence in Spain.

With all due respect, the entire book is devoted to tracing the gypsy influence upon flamenco,
and tracing the history of gypsies to India.

One comparison is how the spanish seguidilla unfolds in a 3 beat measure is
transformed into the gypsy flamenco seguirya 12 beat pattern comparable to Indian ragas.

Further the structure of sequidilla becomes broken by vocal syllables added before and after the lyrics,
and that these syllables, almost purely vocal but wordless can also be found in the music of the gypsies of hungary
and is called szaj bogo is not unlike the use of bol syllables in the rhythmic part of Indian dhrupad music.

I guess the main issue is with the widely spread claim that cuban rumba has influences from African and Spanish
music. The question I have never seen answered is which Spanish music? I had always kind of assumed it was flamenco,
because that comes to my mind when I think of Spanish music. If it is flamenco, then the gypsy influence, whose origins are in
India, would potentially be present as well? Potentially best demonstrated in the diana of a rumba song.

I guess the main issue is with the widely spread claim that cuban rumba has influences from African and Spanish
music. The question I have never seen answered is which Spanish music? I had always kind of assumed it was flamenco,
because that comes to my mind when I think of Spanish music. If it is flamenco, then the gypsy influence, whose origins are in
India, would potentially be present as well? Potentially best demonstrated in the diana of a rumba song.

That sounds like an interesting book you are reading, is it "Gypsies and Flamenco by Bernard Leblon and Sinéad Ní Shuinéar"? I may have to check it out.

I know only very little about flamenco, but I think it is generally considered to be the music of Spanish gypsies, and not gypsies in general nor the Spanish in general, is that correct?

So while rumba may indeed have influences from flamenco, which may have influences from the gypsies' roots in India, I think it would be a bit of a stretch to say rumba has influence from Indian music. For me that would be kind of leaping a generation and only serve to confuse rather than clarify the issue.

Other Spanish influences are, as you mentioned, the use of the décima (I guess you have seen Phil Pasmanick's great article), and of course the rather obvious but not insignificant fact that rumbas are sung almost entirely in Spanish. Spanish-language songs from other genres frequently turn up in rumba, especially coplas (from Spain) boleros (from Cuba and Mexico) and rancheras and corridos (from Mexico).

Some of the other spanish influences are detailed in the documentary "La Rumba" by Oscar Valdes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDkIE6PG ... re=related

These include:

The word "rumba" itself - from "mujeres del rumbo" or "Women of the street" ie., prostitutes ( I personally have my doubts about that one.)
The typical "rumbera" costume
The use of the handkerchief while dancing

On one hand, I believe the main function of the diana in both styles (does that section in flamenco have a name, by the way?) is to signal the beginning of a song and also to establish the key and mode in what are essentially a cappella musics. (I believe the guitar was added to or gained prominence in flamenco only later in its development.) So to me it is not *inconceivable* that they developed independently.

But on the other hand, in another part of the Valdés documentary, the great rumba singer Saldiguera declares unequivocally that the diana comes from flamenco:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SRYG3KQzD4

and who is anyone to argue with him??

And given all the opportunities, such as the prolonged presence in Havana of "los negros curros" - the flamboyant and stylish free blacks from Andalucia who settled and flourished around El Manglar in Jesus María (later one of the most famous rumbero barrios) for about 300 years until mysteriously fading out by the 1840's; later the many Spanish working and artisan-class immigrants (many from Andalucia) to Cuba beginning in the 1880's; and the acknowledged influence of Cuban music on Flamenco, with the so-called "cantes de ida y vuelta" ("Songs of going and coming back" ie, across the Atlantic), many of which are songs from Cuba (and Argentina, I believe), the connection seems more than plausible.

Which reminds me, some things that drive me crazy about spanish music and rumba is when people don't realize that "rumba flamenca" came from "rumba cubana" and not the other way around, and that the use of the cajon in rumba did not come from flamenco. Flamenco only picked up the cajon in the 1970's when Paco de Lucia heard it while on tour in Peru and incorporated it in his music. (A lamentable development in my opinion. For me the cajon doesn't add anything new in flamenco, merely (over)emphasizes elements that are already present.) But I digress.

That sounds like an interesting book you are reading, is it "Gypsies and Flamenco by Bernard Leblon and Sinéad Ní Shuinéar"? I may have to check it out.

Yes, that the book I'm referring too. It was a very interesting book for me.

I know only very little about flamenco, but I think it is generally considered to be the music of Spanish gypsies, and not gypsies in general nor the Spanish in general, is that correct?

I think this is correct as well, a large portion of the book is spent developing the connection between Andalusian gypsies and flamenco, as there exists some contention as to the origins of the music in Spain, with Andalusians claiming it is a native art.

So while rumba may indeed have influences from flamenco, which may have influences from the gypsies' roots in India, I think it would be a bit of a stretch to say rumba has influence from Indian music. For me that would be kind of leaping a generation and only serve to confuse rather than clarify the issue.

Again I would tend to agree with you, I was mainly struck by the descriptions of the gypsy influences on the songs of flamenco and how similar it sounded to the diana. The authors do connect it to existing vocal styles of gypsies in other countries, and note the similarities in certain singing styles that remain in the Indian region which was the origin of the gypsies.

Other Spanish influences are, as you mentioned, the use of the décima (I guess you have seen Phil Pasmanick's great article), and of course the rather obvious but not insignificant fact that rumbas are sung almost entirely in Spanish. Spanish-language songs from other genres frequently turn up in rumba, especially coplas (from Spain) boleros (from Cuba and Mexico) and rancheras and corridos (from Mexico).

I haven't gotten around to Phil's article, I'm referring to the book "Rumba: Dance and Social Change in Contemporary Cuba by Yvonne Daniel.

Some of the other spanish influences are detailed in the documentary "La Rumba" by Oscar Valdes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDkIE6PG ... re=related

These include:
The word "rumba" itself - from "mujeres del rumbo" or "Women of the street" ie., prostitutes ( I personally have my doubts about that one.)
The typical "rumbera" costume
The use of the handkerchief while dancing

On one hand, I believe the main function of the diana in both styles (does that section in flamenco have a name, by the way?)

I think it is referred to as cana in solea songs and also exists in jolea songs. The vocal technique is also used by Hungarian gypsies and is called szaj bogo.

is to signal the beginning of a song and also to establish the key and mode in what are essentially a cappella musics. (I believe the guitar was added to or gained prominence in flamenco only later in its development.) So to me it is not *inconceivable* that they developed independently.

The book states that the oldest flamenco songs are the tonas, which are unaccompanied by guitar. The traits of the tonas are not found in the surrounding regions of Spain can be be detected in the music of Hungarian gypsies.

But on the other hand, in another part of the Valdés documentary, the great rumba singer Saldiguera declares unequivocally that the diana comes from flamenco:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SRYG3KQzD4

and who is anyone to argue with him??

And given all the opportunities, such as the prolonged presence in Havana of "los negros curros" - the flamboyant and stylish free blacks from Andalucia who settled and flourished around El Manglar in Jesus María (later one of the most famous rumbero barrios) for about 300 years until mysteriously fading out by the 1840's; later the many Spanish working and artisan-class immigrants (many from Andalucia) to Cuba beginning in the 1880's; and the acknowledged influence of Cuban music on Flamenco, with the so-called "cantes de ida y vuelta" ("Songs of going and coming back" ie, across the Atlantic), many of which are songs from Cuba (and Argentina, I believe), the connection seems more than plausible.

Sweet, I was wondering if there was an actual connection between Andalusia and Cuba.

Which reminds me, some things that drive me crazy about spanish music and rumba is when people don't realize that "rumba flamenca" came from "rumba cubana" and not the other way around, and that the use of the cajon in rumba did not come from flamenco. Flamenco only picked up the cajon in the 1970's when Paco de Lucia heard it while on tour in Peru and incorporated it in his music. (A lamentable development in my opinion. For me the cajon doesn't add anything new in flamenco, merely (over)emphasizes elements that are already present.) But I digress.

Thanks for the well written and educational reply, very much appreciated. I'm not trying to establish Indian music in rumba or anything, like I said the description of the vocal styles of the gypsies sounded very similar to the diana in rumba and I was curious if there was any possibility of a connection. It seems possible at least to me.

bongosnotbombs wrote:So could rumba contain influences from Africa, Spain, the Moorish Empire and India?

As my predecessors have already stated, that is most likely in my opinion.
I would like to emphasize also the entity of singing, dancing and playing music in both flamenco and rumba.

I am not an expert on dancing, but the only thing I know about flamenco being danced is that especially the hand and arm movement are said to have their origin in Indian dance, being handed down by the gitanos indeed.

So I guess the musical development took a similar way, with all the acculturation processes going on in Andalusia over the centuries on the one hand and the subsequent merging with West African traditions in the Caribbean, especially Cuba.
All in all, Andalusia has been a cultural melting pot just as interesting as Cuba or - -the USA!

Interesting book you are reading indeed, BnB!

in before Dr. Z.

Have you guys seen "Latcho Drom"

A beautiful film...

Tracing a chronological 1,000-year-old path of Gypsy migration from Rajasthan to Spain, these 18 tracks contain a myriad of different styles from the Indian subcontinent, Egypt, Turkey, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, France, and the flamenco Gypsies of Barcelona.

There are a few songs on you tube.

but it doesn't go to Cuba!

What seems really ironic to me is that modern flamenco is being strongly influenced by cuban music and rumba,
when at first it was the other way around.

bongosnotbombs wrote:What seems really ironic to me is that modern flamenco is being strongly influenced by cuban music and rumba,
when at first it was the other way around.

Same type of thing, of course, happened in Africa big time, as I know you know, Geordie, with Cuban son becoming all the rage across many countries there starting around the 1930's, and greatly influencing the music there.

What seems really ironic to me is that modern flamenco is being strongly influenced by cuban music and rumba,
when at first it was the other way around.

Here's an example from Peret, one of the main innovators of "rumba catalana" with "Lo mato":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUBXsKfFjQ8

and here is the original ("Adios Compay Gato") by Ñico Saquito y los Guaracheros de Oriente:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aby8IHkYgoI

There are many other examples out there.

By the way I always like to encourage everyone who is interested in Spanish influences on rumba to check out Philip Pasmanick's fantastic article on decima in rumba, I renewed the links here:

http://esquinarumbera.blogspot.com/2006/08/dcima-and-rumba-back-on-web.html


saludos
barry

guarachon63 wrote:

Which reminds me, some things that drive me crazy about spanish music and rumba is when people don't realize that "rumba flamenca" came from "rumba cubana" and not the other way around, and that the use of the cajon in rumba did not come from flamenco.

Like Rock n Roll, it would be inconceivable by society that this music came from black folk...

Since we are on the subject, this is a video of the great Paco de Lucia, on
of the better examples of the fusion between afro-cuban and flamenco IMHO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oyhlad64-s

does anyone know who the bongo player is?

I believe that is Jose Mangual Sr. playing bongo with Paco in the 70s.

The flamenco infatuation with Cuban music gave rise to not just the rumba flamenca (I suspected the name 'rumba' could have derived from the term 'tangos arrumbao' or a kind of degenerate tango - that's flamenco, not argentine, a whole other story but one that also points to Bantu/Congo influence) but also (as Guarachon posted) the genre of flamenco songs known as "cantes de ida y vuelta" which include rhythms known as guajira and colombiana, of which the former is probably related to the Cuban punto guajiro.

More recently, flamenco bailaor Joaquín Cortés incorporated guaguanco rhythms into his set and even played some quinto. The great modern group Son de la Frontera feature the tres cubano as their lead instrument, interpreting falsetas made famous by the late old-school tocaor Diego del Gastor.

Even more interesting (to me anyways) is that many names of pre-flamenco forms such as 'cachuca', 'fandango', and 'zarabande' seem to suggest sub-Saharan influence - Sarabanda, in particular is the Palo manifestation of Ogun I believe? A well-reviewed book by the author José Luis Navarro García, 'Semillas de Ebano:El elemento negro y afroamericano en el baile flamenco', which I have not read, is reputed to explore these influences. I've seen footage of tangos flamencos/rumba flamenca danced by gypsy families that suggested the vacunao, with handkerchief, and rooster and hen roles. I imagine this influence to be Cuban rather than straight Bantu, but who knows?

The diana seems to me to derive directly from the flamenco 'templar' (tuning up) which can also be referred to as 'ayeo' (onomatopoeia) or 'quejio' (lament) if it really gets worked up. In some cases the diana even seems to me to imply the harmony of the 'Andalusian cadence' (iv, III, II, I). In any case I think alot of argument can be made for 'cross-pollenization' or both musical cultures influencing one another at various points (the Congolese rumba/soukous a good example I think), but I also agree with Guarachon that chauvinists would deny the 'mutuality' of influence.

bongosnotbombs wrote:Since we are on the subject, this is a video of the great Paco de Lucia, on
of the better examples of the fusion between afro-cuban and flamenco IMHO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oyhlad64-s

does anyone know who the bongo player is?

Nice video BnB. I went digging for Catalana on the board and found this thread. There's an off chance I may get involved with a group with these influences - looks like fun!

If anyone else has any links or info on catalan/rumba fusion please share

RR