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Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:17 pm**

Hello,

I looked for samba in the conga book on this website and there were several different ones: Samba Caboclo, Samba Congo, Samba Congo 2 and Samba Rural. I also searched on the internet and every Samba rhythm I looked at seemed different. Can someone explain this? Is there one that's considered to be the "basic Samba"? If someone asked you to play Samba what do you play for them?

Thanks.

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:48 pm**

What happen with the Samba is the same thing than with the Comparsas in Cuba's Carnival,each Comparsa was trying to create the articulation which would be better to compete with the rest,...So each Samba School is going to put something which could be different of the rest...Both in Cuba and in Brazil they are competing for the first prize.Dr. Zaragemca

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:15 pm**

Well like in Cuba the rhythms change with the "area/neighborhood"...the play differently in Santiago,Cuba, than they do in Matanzas, so in Brasil of course in different "areas/neighborhood" "create" "their own" patterns or carry over the ones that have been "passed down" to them.....Johnny Conga.....

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:31 pm**

So if a beginner (me) wants to learn a Samba rhythm, does it matter which one? Just pick one at random?

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:39 pm**

If they're different but they're all Samba, what are the characteristics that make a rhythm Samba and not something else?

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:01 pm**

So if a beginner (me) wants to learn a Samba rhythm, does it matter which one? Just pick one at random?

It depends on what type of samba you want to play. I once saw in a music dictionary over a hundred different styles of samba listed.

Not to contradict our esteemed Dr Z, the sambas performed by Samba Schools at Carnaval (these days) are known as "Sambas de Enredo" or "Sambas with a plot" since they all tell a story or are built around some theme, and use a style known as "batucada." I'm not too into this style but you can find many recordings out there under either of those two names.

If you want to play with smaller ensembles, look into "samba-canção" ("song samba") I would suggest recordings by someone like Cartola as masterpieces of this genre.

90% of the time you run into someone wanting you to play samba at a gig, you will use samba-canção. Since congas are not a typical instrument in samba, any chart you find will be an adaptation and so will be kind of weird-sounding.

Will be essential to just listen to a lot of samba because getting the feel is the most important thing.

There is another popular style (my favorite) called "Partido Alto" were the singing is based on improvisational call-and-response choruses, but that is getting used less and less these days. I would recommend listening to Candeia or Aniceto do Imperio for masterpieces of this style.

You might also try looking up "Pagode" which has all kind of implications but in its current style is wildly popular.

If they're different but they're all Samba, what are the characteristics that make a rhythm Samba and not something else?

wikipedia has a pretty good article covering most of the most popular variations.

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:02 pm**

chris hansen wrote:If they're different but they're all Samba, what are the characteristics that make a rhythm Samba and not something else?

I think several things define samba
- the flow of finer time subdivisions (usually notated as 16th notes) is not even, but has distinctive swing to it. Hard to describe in words, but easily picked up when listening. This is played by instruments like ganza, chocalho or tamborim. Notation never shows this swing, but you must play it in order to sound like samba.
- bass drum (surdo) gives main emphasis on second not the first beat of a measure
- music has something of a clave-like structure when more syncopated bars alternate with less syncopated ones. this is most evident in agogo parts, but others have it as well

All this can only be remotely emulated by one man on drumset or conga set, but I'm sure there are books that show examples. I must say though, that I only have some experience with batucada style, so maybe it's different in other styles.

Edited By korman on 1191971017

Posted: **Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:18 am**

korman wrote:All this can only be remotely emulated by one man on drumset or conga set,

Unless, he's Airto

I guess he even does not need an instrument to do that, but he can use some .. http://youtube.com/watch?v=sOLvjVYE8oo

Check him out playing pandeiro if you can.

Posted: **Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:20 am**

Guarachon63 was too modest to post the link to his youtube video regarding an excellent performance of Partido Alto by Candeia, so here it is:

Partido Alto

Edited By Derbeno on 1192184484

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:57 pm**

The posters are right about there being different flavors of samba. Some are designed to sound like an entire school of drums (batucada). Other times, patterns could be played on ride cymbals or hi hats for quieter sound. The one constant is always is a general 16th note feel, with a constant bass drum pattern of playing the 1st 16th note and LAST 16th note of a beat. If you were to count sixteenth notes as (one-E-AN-DA, two-E-AN-DA, so on), you'd be playing the bass drum on the One and the "Da"), with accents on the "das", so that the music has a constant driving groove.

In reality, I approach Samba like I approach Songo...there isn't a SET pattern. there's a general groove and I imitate the stylistic improvisations of past Samba drummers to get into the "feel". Listening to Sergio Mendes' groups, or Airto Moreira are good ideas. Sometimes I get on the ride for a Samba Jazz feel...sometimes I play exclusively on the snare drum with bass drum for a more batucada samba feel, and sometimes I get on the high hat and imitate the triangle sound by opening and closing the hi-hat in rhythm. Depends on the type of samba being played.

For congas, what I personally do is make up a pattern that allows me to alternate between playing Quinto and Tumbadora. Since Congas are not very usual instruments in traditional sambas, as with drum set (which is not usual in afro-cuban music), I emulate the sounds of other instruments on that.

Counting 4/4, I play 16th note, Samba-grooved patterns (made up) on the Quinto on 1 and 3 of the measure, and on beats 2 and 4, I play the "One and "Da" bass drum pattern on the Tumbadora.

So, it sounds a little like this (basic pattern, trying to place beats in relation to how I would play),
1 2 3 4
Pack-BaDum...Pack-Pack-BaDum

If I want to get fancy, I'd do something like this
1 2 (triplet)3 4
Pack-Pack-BaDum Pa-Pa-Pa-BaDum

The rest of it gets inspired...what clinches everything together is maintaining the "badum" on the 2 and 4...everything in between those can be inspired 16-note related patterns that "sound" like they're authentic samba grooves. For good ideas on what to play in between the 2 and 4 "BaDums", listening to authentic sambas and listen specifically to the Caixa drum, to the Agogo Bells, and to ESPECIALLY the Cuica. In fact, if you really listen to the Cuica, it's alternating between a high-pitch and low-pitch tone, continually improvising. When soloing above a samba-groove, you could DIRECTLY imitate a Cuica by playing all High-pitch tones on Quinto, and all low-pitch tones on Tumbadora (or, alternatively, alternate Slaps and Open tones, as Cuica patterns).

Basically, you'll do fine with the basic "pack-Badum, Pack-pack-Badum" to just keep a basic groove, but if you wanna add flavor, that's where you'll need to have heard some Agogo Bells, Cuicas, and Caixas to get stylistic improvisation grooves that mark you as a knowledgeable Samba drummer.

Take a look at this drummer - http://youtube.com/watch?v=J53fdFUAXbM

Notice that he's playing with his left hand the Zurdo pattern (what most drummers play in the bass drum)...the Badum groove. and the right hand is open for stylistic improvisation OVER the badum pattern. Well, you could either adapt that idea and play a Badum pattern on the Tumbadora all the time, and use the other hand to solo using open tones and Slap tones to create the samba grooves OR you could use both hands and only do the badums on 2 and 4, and get ideas from the drummer's right hand to do with both hands on the Quinto. It's really the "One AND two...AND One...AND Two" feel that matters.

Sounds a lot harder than it is, really. Remember...imitate Samba instruments with the congas. They don't have a set pattern because they're not instruments regularly used in actual Sambas.

Edited By Firebrand on 1194473332

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:15 am**

It’s true that since congas are a Cuban instrument, there is no traditional conga part for samba per sé. However, there is the hand drum tradition of samba de roda, played on atabaque drums. Atabaques are conical hand drums (probably of Bantu origin), used in Candomble rituals. The bell pattern for the Candomble rhythm cabula (Bantu origin) is probably the source for the common samba tamborim part:

X||.X.X.XX.X.XX.X.X|| cabula bell pattern

X||.X.X.XX.X.X.XX.X|| samba tamborim patern

This is also similar to the basic partido alto motif

X.X||.X..X.X.X.X..X.X||

Here's the main samba de roda hand drum part:

||.S.SO..OO..S.O.O||

O = open tone
S = slap

If you are playing a 2-3 song begin half-way through these patterns.

Conga players have also replicated surdo parts on two drums when playing a jazz samba piece:

o||o.SOOS.oo.SOOS.o||

o = open tone on high conga
O = open tone on low conga

The most clear and readily available example of samba de roda playing on congas is on the CD "Primal Roots" by Sergio Mendez and Brazil ’77.
-David

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:55 am**

Yes David you know your stuff.

Samba is the most misunderstood rhythm outside of Brazil, especially by drummers.
The Samba is almost a hundred years old and has evolved into millions of styles and genres. It is very hard to say what is Samba today, eventhough it is completely obvious to any Carioca.

Like David, I think the only way to make sense of it is to go back to the very root of it and that is of course the cabula rhytm from the candomble which features the three main elements of the Samba :
1-a 2/4 rhythm with accent on the 2
2-The agogo part which gives you the partido alto clave or the tambourim or the left hand on the tantan and millions of others things. The trick that very few people understand is that (as David mentioned) it starts half way through and cycles over two bars. Very confusing at first. A bit similar in some ways to the way the clave works with guaguanco.
3-And of course the most important: the swing, the feel!! Which also stems from the interplay of the rhythms in cabula. That swing is so beautiful, so restrained, so subtle and yet so powerful! Feeling that swing is what it is all about. And, you won't pick it up after a few listening sessions, it take years.

The conga parts in the conga book are parts that would actually be played (albeit rarely) with a Samba ensemble, but they are not what is commonly referred to as the Samba rhythm. The rhythm is usually spread over many percussionists sometimes hundreds of them.
The only instrument that suggests the all thing is the pandeiro, which emulates almost everything with its various strokes.

I will try to write down a Samba rhythm for the conga but it really doesn't come alive without some special type of ghost notes ( from the atabaque technique) and the famous swing.

T.Gtt.gsTT.tts.s
r.rlr.rlrr.lrl.l

T= open tumba
t= open conga
G= ghost tumba
g= ghost conga
. =rest
s= slap

not that the last two slaps should be more like atabaque slaps in the middle of the drums. They don't make any sense with out the proper swing, they suggest the agogo of cabula or partido alto .

It is best to start the rhytms with the last slap as a pick up. You will feel it more.

I am hoping to be able to offer soon some really good learning and practising tools for both Cuban and Brazilian rhytms. The stuff I always and still think I so sorely missed.

Anyway this forum will be the first to know about it.

Good luck with the samba. Get a pandeiro teacher if you can, it will help more than anything.

I was once showed this phonemes technique to get the feel which I think works quite well. Here it is : just say out loud over and over again. Do it to some samba recording it will make sense...

TakarakaTakarakaTakaraka....etccc

Um Abraço e boa sorte!

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:31 pm**

Tone wrote:I will try to write down a Samba rhythm for the conga but it really doesn't come alive without some special type of ghost notes ( from the atabaque technique) and the famous swing.

Thanks for all the info.

Is there a recording that would illustrate how this should sound?

Thanks.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:39 pm**

David, Tone

What a wonderful discussion! Man, you guys are a treasure. Any chance either of you could post some video demo-ing the discussion, even the most basic of rhyhthm structure might help interested drummers like me open the door a little more.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:01 pm**

it involves a bit more than a video , because it is all about how it fits together. I have only tow hands.

As I said I am working on tools that will help every one understand and practise this stuff to the highest level.

A bit more patience.

In the mean time listen to any thing by beth carvallo or clara nunes and look at pandeiro.com.

help is on the way!

peace

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Too many Sambas