Amplification

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Amplification

Postby CongaTick » Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:58 pm

Though this subject has been threaded before, am looking for updates or new opinions. As a guest conguero on many electrically amped gigs, despite my four mics fed into my mixer, and offering a mixed single line out to their PA, the congas still tend to get lost in the noise.

Was thinking of investing in the Behringer 212A EuroLive Speaker system. AT $279 it seems its 400 watts might help me compete comfortably, ain other words an independent sound system in MY control. I know there's some PA/Audio heavy hitters on the forum. What say you to one with limited budget?
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Re: Amplification

Postby onile » Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:50 pm

Alafia Abure CongaTick!
I hope that you are well and abundantly blessed my brother!

As for your question, I say "go for it"! I have been using the Mackie SRM 450 for my gigs and I haven't looked back. You will then have "full" control over your sound/amplification whenever you play out. Even if the gig has a PA and sound engineer, you can use it as a personal monitor for your self. For that price too, I would say if you can pay it, get it, good!

Many blessings!

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Re: Amplification

Postby jorge » Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:03 pm

I have a different take on this than Onile, con todo respeto mi hermano. I think getting your own separate PA speaker is probably a bad idea, here is why. You already have a presumably well balanced, decent sounding conga track that you are providing to the sound system from your mics and submixer. If the congas "get lost in the noise", either there is just too much noise and everyone needs to turn down, or someone is choosing to keep the gain on your track too low, or there is some technical problem with the level of output from your submixer, which seems much less likely. If the music sounds like "noise", your band needs someone to do the sound who can make the band sound good, your contribution included. If there is some prejudice against the congas, and you play well, then play softer during the sound check, let them set the levels based on that, and play a little louder during the performance. Overdo that trick and they will just turn you down once the music starts.

Who is controlling the mixer? You haven't given much information but it sounds like a political problem among the musicians, or a poor mix by the sound engineer if there is one, and a technological fix is the wrong approach. It sounds like the band is already too loud and poorly mixed. Getting your own PA speaker is likely to escalate the loudness war, and you are unlikely to win that with a Behringer speaker, or probably any other powered speaker in your price range. You don't want to increase stage sound levels, potential for feedback, and "noise", and you don't want to make it much harder for the sound engineer to properly balance all the vocals and instruments in the listening area. You do want a clear mix in which each instrument and vocalist is heard by the audience at the appropriate level to make the music an organic whole. If you need a monitor to help you sing in tune and play in time with the other musicians, then that is best done by providing you with a monitor with properly mixed levels from carefully selected other important vocals and instruments.
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Re: Amplification

Postby onile » Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:49 pm

Alafia Abure Jorge!
Como esta familia?

You present some truly great points, sounds like you've encountered this problem before as well. In my case however, I subscribe to the notion of "better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it"! I've experienced the "Loudness" war with this small group that I am currently working with and believe me, it isn't fun at all. The bass player is the piano players younger brother and they both continue a respectable sibling rivalry onstage. Everyone wants to be heard over the others, but when it comes down to the percussion, not necessarily the traps (drums), we are mostly considered "ancillary percussion." Very upsetting!

Some musicians, when playing in live situations tend to lose the concept of playing "in concert" with one another, of this I am certain.

I've used your advice during soundcheck, it definitely works until the sound engineer figures out that the leader is wanting to be heard over everyone else and your sound deminishes. Again, very upsetting!

I totally respect your approach hermano, but at the cost of the health and condition of my hands, I personally will go with having my own amplification. I don't think there are any of us on this forum who haven't played "harder" to be heard in situations like we are discussing here. While we're still young, we don't think of the long term effects of this, pero ya' a lo viejo, it becomes a real concern when the aches and pains become longer lasting after an experience of sound wars. I personally can't count on the mercy of a sound engineer, or an egotistical band leader. The conditioning of my hands over the many years of playing has helped me to continue to perform at my best each time however.

I understand that not every playing situation falls into this type of catagory, and I look forward to those gigs when the sound engineer is more atunable to the sound of percussion (congas) in the mix. Unfortunately most of the engineers out here in my corner of the world aren't as knowledgeable of congas in the mix. The traps (drums) are what is commonly their experience and get's most of the volume . Que cosa!

Please understand Abure Jorge, I am not saying that your suggestion is a bad one, I am merely sharing my own experience such as it is. I would hope that your recommendations would be much more successful and applicable than mine. It would save us $ and our hands in the long run!

La bendicion mi hermano!

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Re: Amplification

Postby CongaTick » Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:45 pm

Jorge, Onile,

As I expected, very experienced and wise positions on the amplification issue. Both viewpoints are strong and valid, though I tend toward "having it" in case I need it. As is almost always the case when playing with an electrically amped group with a kit, us conga drummers have to "fight" to be heard and the hands take a beating, which mine did at the last guest gig I played. But the issue of additng more stage gear and being a loose amp cannon that may add to the feedback issue and "noise" is a valid point. I guess I'll just be thinking about this level of equipment commitment for now, yet gratefully welcome additional forum contributions pro or con.
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Re: Amplification

Postby congamyk » Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:45 pm

These are all good ideas - they should all be applied.

Myself, I take the aggressive approach. At least you will be able to hear yourself play if you have your own speaker.
I have been singing, playing sax and percussion professionally for 20+ years and this is the age-old problem.
How loud should the conga player be in the mix.... I say as loud as anyone else.

Another problem is with kit drummers. They are constantly rolling and filling every 4 bars or more. :?
The trendy thinking is to play as loud on drum kit as possible and the volume starts rising.
By the 3rd song in the set everyone's instruments are maxed-out to compete with the drummer.

It's a mad house out there. :lol:
CongaTick I have the Behringer 212A speaker and it works well. It's pretty versatile.
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Re: Amplification

Postby CongaTick » Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:55 pm

Congamyk,

Your reply is greatly appreciated. Yep, I think we've all been there. I'm leaning toward "going for it", since it's impossible to depend on others to mix one's congas into a balanced sound. At the least, it should give me a strong monitor. Thanks a lot guys for your usual sage and balanced ideas and advice.
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Re: Amplification

Postby Light Seeker » Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:25 pm

Just another point to keep in mind: what you the musician hear from on stage and through your monitor (if you have one) is usually VERY different from how the house mix sounds. Just because you think your congas are getting lost in the mix, does not mean they actually are. Granted, they very well COULD be, and often are. All I'm saying is be sure of that before you go and take full control of your own levels, which I think is not the greatest idea in the world. I usually tell the soundguy that the congas should be thought of as if they were additional toms on the drumset, and to mix them accordingly.
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Re: Amplification

Postby jorge » Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:58 am

I am usually the first one to push for playing softer and saving your hands, and I am glad to hear some of you have come to the same conclusion. Onile, you are right, it seems that younger conga players tend to like to play all out and the older master drummers I know mostly have learned to play softer, save their hands, and still project. Or maybe the ones who play too hard never get to become older master drummers?

Anyway, Onile, we are both on the same page with only one difference in our approaches. All of us seem to agree that microphones and your own submixer are the way to go. We all agree on mixing your own 2, 3, or 4 conga mics to one mono signal, which gives you control over the volume balance of all your congas, eg so the tumbadora is equally loud with the conga. Our difference of opinion seems to be whether to have your own PA speaker for that mono mixed congas track or whether to run that track to the main mixer. Either way, you will still have your own submixer main out fader to turn up the congas volume if necessary. The difference is that running the congas track to the main mixer, the engineer can turn you down again after you turn your volume up, and with your own speaker the engineer can't turn you down again. On the other hand, he or she can turn the rest of the band up higher and drown you out again. Seems to me that if you are on friendly terms with the engineer you should be able to work out a reasonable arrangement and keep the congas at the right level in the overall mix. What can get you into trouble is if you get too excited and play too loud for a while, the engineer then turns you down (or turns the rest of the band up). The engineer is likely to turn you down if you are too loud in the mix but may forget to turn you back up if you get too soft in the mix. So once you play too loud and get turned down, then you are often stuck having to play harder to be heard. If the engineer is good, or is at least responsive to signals from the band, just signalling to turn up the congas will get you turned up again. Often that is not the case. The downside of having your own speaker is that as you turn yourself up to be heard, the engineer or the musicians with their own volume controls turn themselves up, you do the same, and then it is all too loud and often not well mixed, ie, the loudness wars begin. Plus, unless the acoustics of the venue stage are really well designed, having amplified sound come from different areas of the stage plus the main house PA speakers can create a muddy sound, especially for percussion where millisecond delays can be heard.

The best solution I have found is to make recordings of all gigs and rehearsals, put them on CDs and give everyone a copy. When they hear how bad it sounds with everyone turned up too loud and all the stage wash, room reverberation, slap echoes, etc they are usually more open to reasonable discussions among all the band members and the engineer about controlling the stage volume, getting a balanced mix, and having each player heard clearly. This usually works best when all vocals and instruments are put through one PA system run by a competent sound reinforcement engineer who is located out in the audience area and can walk around the venue to listen while you are playing. As LightSeeker just said, you can't even tell from onstage if you are too loud or too soft. Also, the band will usually not want to completely drown out the congas, if they did why would they even pay you to play at all?

The trap drummer is often the main culprit and often they are just unconsciously insecure about their timing so they play louder. Skip Burney was preaching to us at a rumba today that some of the drummers were were playing too loud and we couldn't hear the singer. He told us a story about how Miles Davis dealt with a drummer that was playing too loud on a recording date. Miles picked up one of those big black heavy music stands and threw it at the drummer while he was playing. When the drummer jumped up to fight him, Miles told him "you don't love me motherf*cker, or you wouldn't play so loud that no one can hear me". I have faith that all of you can come up with a more civilized and less egotistical but equally effective approach to getting your trap drummer to play softer. Try making friends with the drummer, talk to him, play CDs for him, and play recordings of your gigs. I think communication and working together to get the best band sound is what will solve your problem and save your hands. Whether you have a sound engineer or the band does its own sound engineering, you will sound better if you work together than if you are fighting a loudness war among yourselves.

Alafia y paz.
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Re: Amplification

Postby onile » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:12 am

Well said Papa! Well said indeed!

Con to' respeto!

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Re: Amplification

Postby CongaTick » Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:03 pm

Jorge, your well reasoned approach gives me pause before reaching for my wallet. I have to say the respect I have for the pros that inhabit this forum is continually reinforced. Your experience and love for your instrument and the music comes through. Thanks so much for giving me exactly what I asked for. With much respect to all of you.
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Re: Amplification

Postby jorge » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:12 pm

Congatick,
I am glad you found our responses useful. Tell us a little more about your gigs, what kind of group, what kind of music you play, what instruments, what kind of sound system, whether there is a sound engineer or not, how open the others are to suggestions to make the group sound better, the magnitude of the ego problems, what kind of venues you play in. Those are some of the factors in your decision.
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Re: Amplification

Postby CongaTick » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:59 pm

Being a Percussion Prostitute I am not limited to any single group. I will gig with a classic rock group one night, a reggae/funk group on the next gig, a fusion group the following week, then onto an accoustic trio, etc. etc. More often than not the PA mix is handled by the leader of the group, though for the fusion gigs, the house engr did the mix. I probably need to be a bit more insistent about the quality and levels of the mix . I run Samson cheapo clipons, though for ease of movement around my 3 drum setup I put them under my drums inside socks to dampen extraneous noise. An additional omni is on a gooseneck over the bongos. All mics go to a Tapco mixer for a one line out. I do a premix using a set of earphones before handing it off.
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Re: Amplification

Postby jorge » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:40 am

Hi Congatick,
Well it sounds like you have a variety of situations, some of which the congas play a prominent role and your sound is important to the group, and some of which there are a lot of other louder instruments and you have very little control over the final mix. I think it is a big advantage that you mic your congas and use your own submixer to produce a single line level conga track that you can mix to your satisfaction. That is the piece of all this that you control, and while the leaders and sound engineer of the groups can do with it what they want, everyone has to recognize that you have delivered your product to the group. Keeping an open dialog with the sound person, whether that is the group leader or the engineer, is important. Keep in mind that, even if you have a monitor mix from the main mixer, you still don't hear what the audience hears, and make your suggestions with some humility.

I would imagine that you work with some of those groups on a regular basis, and can use the sound from one gig to help improve the sound at the next gig with that group. If this is so, I think that one of your best tools would be a small digital recorder with a decent mic that you can use to record your gigs from somewhere out in the audience area, hear how the group and you sound, and if you think some changes would help the group sound better, then use the recordings to help convince the powers that be to tweak the mix a little differently the next gig.

Whether you get and use your own personal PA speaker depends on your specific situation including the factors I mentioned previously. I do think that you could probably improve on your sound with a different mic setup. Samson mics inside socks under your congas might sound good, but I suspect you could do better. You can get away with 1 decent mic above and between 2 congas, or 2 decent mics for 3 congas. The mic is the single part of the signal chain that has the most effect on how your congas sound, aside from your technique and the main PA speakers. I have not heard the Samson drum mics, but I have had good experiences with Shure SM57s on congas and bongos.You can either use mic stands or LP Claw type clamps on your drums. The Sennheiser e604 sounds decent too, and is more compact and in a set of 3 is a little cheaper than SM57s. The socks will dampen high frequencies and color the sound, placing them under the congas will emphasize some parts of the sound and reduce others, and probably won't sound very natural. Only you can decide if it sounds good or not. Good luck, and let us know what you decide and how it works in action.
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Re: Amplification

Postby CongaTick » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:37 pm

Wow Jorge!

Excellent ideas, advice and suggestions. Greatly appreciated. And you are quite right -- the Samson-in-the-sock rig is not the best way to go. Perhaps the best investmemt would certainly be two SM-57s on booms over my setup. The Sennheisers may be a bit pricey for me at the moment, but the Shures are probably affordable. Instead of the investment in MORE amplification, a cleaner acquisition of sound from the mic might be a big help. The digital recorder is also a great idea. All in all, I have to be a bit more critical and diplomatically insistent about my sound in the mix. Thanks, guys for taking the time and thought to offer me your usual wise counsel. Have a great, safe, joyous and peaceful holiday season. Shalom to all.
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