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Posted:
Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:40 pmby Jongo
I am trying to play Afro Blue, the opening conga part, and this is what I think I am hearing and I want to check with some other more experienced people to see if I am somewhat correct
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H T S T O B
O S O O
Gracias Maestros
Posted:
Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:16 pmby zaragemca
Greeting,this congas patterns are part of the transition which took place when the Bata Percutive Patterns were transfered to the Congas,and there are differents ways to structure them withing the Yorubas Percutive Parameters,(6/8 time signature),so you might find that differents percussionist could use a variety of structures,(specially this song which have been recorded several times).Dr. Zaragemca
Edited By zaragemca on 1126711380
Posted:
Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:52 pmby Jongo
Right, so the pattern is a 6/8 bata pattern that was transitioned to congas, and there is a variety of patterns used because this song has been recorded so much.
I am listening to what I think is the original Mongo Santamaria version, it appears on the compilation CD Afro-Roots and on the Skin on Skin anthology.
Any other opinions on if this is correct or close to what is being played on that piece?
Posted:
Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:57 pmby tamboricua
Jongo wrote:I am trying to play Afro Blue, the opening conga part, and this is what I think I am hearing and I want to check with some other more experienced people to see if I am somewhat correct
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 +
H T S T O B
O S O O
Gracias Maestros
Hi Jongo,
Very nice job! One minor thing, you have the pattern inverted. The phrase which starts with the open tone on the macho should be on the 3 side of the clave, not on the second bar as you transcribed it.
Zara:
I believe Mongo's inspiration for this pattern was the Abakua tradition, not Batá! As a matter of fact, I hear a third tumbadora added right before the melody start playing an Obiapá part.
Saludos,
Jorge Ginorio
Edited By tamboricua on 1126747231
Posted:
Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:48 pmby ralph
tamboricua wrote:I believe Mongo's inspiration for this pattern was the Abakua tradition, not Batá! As a matter of fact, I hear a third tumbadora added right before the melody start playing an Obiapá part.
Saludos,
Jorge Ginorio
Jorge,
i second that...i have heard various versions, one with Francisco Aguabella, i believe you can hear the biankome part throughout (although i would have to go back and check) but the thing that lets you know if was influenced by abakua is when mongo solo's he might as well should be on bonko enchemiya...the version i am talking about is the one that appeas on the Smithsonian Latin Jazz Compilation...i believe it is the original...
Edited By ralph on 1126716691
Posted:
Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:12 pmby Jongo
Jorge, you da man!
So it's correct but inverted, I can fix that. Thanks for your feedback.
The third tumbadora playing the Obiapa part, do you know what that part is?
Posted:
Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:48 pmby tamboricua
Jongo wrote:Jorge, you da man!
So it's correct but inverted, I can fix that. Thanks for your feedback.
The third tumbadora playing the Obiapa part, do you know what that part is?
Jongo,
No problem brother, anytime!
Take a look at the attached link:
Conga Pioneer Part.1
There you will find "Afro Blue" conga part transcribed in the proper clave direction. Also take a look at the transcription labeled "Low Drum" that's the traditonal Abakua Obiapá part.
Hope this helps!
Saludos,
Jorge Ginorio
Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:36 pmby zaragemca
Greeting Tamboricua,first thanks for participating,the percussion patterns which Mongo used for Afro/Blue is taking from the Yorubas Percutive Patterns which is differents than the Carabali,(Abakua), why do I said that?,first, I recognize the patterns,..second,Mongo Santamaria influence have been Yorubas were his brothers Luis Santamaria was one of the singers of Dr. Obdulio Morales which was the first in creating those multiple percussion patterns for his show 'Batamu'.Third,remember that the first recording of Mongo in the U.S. of folkloric music,(1955 ), was also Yorubas related,... The solo is telling me that his trying to imitate the two voising of the Bata/Drum,(there is not two headed drum in the Carabali,(Abakua),chanting,and there is not Chekere neither..The African percussion patterns some time are confusing, so the details are the one pointing to the right direction.There were a lot of writing in relation to Chano Pozo where the people thought that his patterns influences were Yorubas,(santeria), and I cleared that also,it was the other way around,it was Carabali,(Abakua).Dr. Zaragemca
Edited By zaragemca on 1126801378
Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:38 pmby JohnnyConga
The BEST version of AFro Blue, in my opinion is the one on the "Latino" album by Cal Tjader...."JC" Johnny Conga ps Mongo also played Afro blue "split hand" over 2 congas...I know this cause we hung out and I saw him do it that way, which is just "one" way of playing the pattern...JC--Mongoite Alumni 
Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:27 pmby tamboricua
JohnnyConga wrote:Mongo also played Afro blue "split hand" over 2 congas...I know this cause we hung out and I saw him do it that way, which is just "one" way of playing the pattern...JC--Mongoite Alumni
As it appears transcribed in Alex Pertout Conga Pioneer Part 1 article previously posted.
3-1!!!!!!!!!!!
Saludos,
Jorge Ginorio
Edited By tamboricua on 1126821475
Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:56 pmby tamboricua
zaragemca wrote:Greeting Tamboricua,first thanks for participating,the percussion patterns which Mongo used for Afro/Blue is taking from the Yorubas Percutive Patterns which is differents than the Carabali,(Abakua), why do I said that?,first, I recognize the patterns,..second,Mongo Santamaria influence have been Yorubas were his brothers Luis Santamaria was one of the singers of Dr. Obdulio Morales which was the first in creating those multiple percussion patterns for his show 'Batamu'.Third,remember that the first recording of Mongo in the U.S. of folkloric music,(1955 ), was also Yorubas related,... The solo is telling me that his trying to imitate the two voising of the Bata/Drum,(there is not two headed drum in the Carabali,(Abakua),chanting,and there is not Chekere neither..The African percussion patterns some time are confusing, so the details are the one pointing to the right direction.There were a lot of writing in relation to Chano Pozo where the people thought that his patterns influences were Yorubas,(santeria), and I cleared that also,it was the other way around,it was Carabali,(Abakua).Dr. Zaragemca
Greetings Dr. Zaragemca,
I'm sorry Dr., but I don't agree with you on this one. Maybe the only Yoruba influence on this track might be the melody of the tune itself that resembles me Obatala's:
baba fururu erereo, okañeñe leribo, etc, etc.
Any others hear that resemblance?
But when referring to the actual conga and other percussion parts on it, I don't hear anything that resembles me "Yoruba Percutive Patterns". If you listen closely, there is even and Ekón part all the way through out the track. Now you mentioned about Mongo's solo trying to emulate the two voicings of the Batá drum? I don't know Dr., maybe you skipped that chapter towards your doctoral degree, but batá drumming involves more than two sounds.
Saludos,
Jorge Ginorio
Edited By tamboricua on 1126815933
Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:02 pmby zaragemca
Greeting brother you misunderstood what I was talking about I said two voicing becouse the Bata/drum have two different heads,(each head have its voicing),'REGARDLESS OF THE AMOUNT OF SOUNDS',the Abakua drums have only one head,(one voicing),like the Djembe.You are making something out of this world,playing Yoruba song with Abakua percussion Patterns.Also from where Mongo is going to get and Ekon to play in recording?.Dr Zaragemca
Edited By zaragemca on 1126890571
Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:16 pmby tamboricua
zaragemca wrote:You are making something out of this world,playing Yoruba song with Abakua percussion Patterns.Also from where Mongo is going to get and Ekon to play in recording?.Dr Zaragemca
Greetings Dr. Zaragemca,
I'm not, but certainly Mongo and his peers did and it seemed to work fine because the tune in question became one the most recorded and popular "Latin Jazz" tunes of all times. Dr. you perfectly know, that many of this cats were into: Regla de Ochá, Arará, Iyesá, Abakuá at the same time, they understood and saw the possibility and compatibility of mixing this rhythms, again the tune in question is a "Latin Jazz" tune in which the fusion of styles and rhythms is perfectly permitted, if we were talking about playing in a "Casa Templo" for a ceremony, todos sabemos que es "maíz de otro costal". For example, for years tamboreros (batá players) have come up with rhythms to accompany let say Iyesá, or Arará chants with the batá (Yoruba), if they do it why not in a Latin Jazz setting? Do you think that if Mongo ever wanted the solo on this particular track to sound like a batá drum, he wouldn't let one the baddest Iyá players to ever live Francisco Aguabella record that part? He was at the sessions! How Mongo will get a hold on an Ekón, the same way he did get a hold of his tumbadoras Vergara.
Con respeto,
Jorge Ginorio
Edited By tamboricua on 1126899504
Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:45 pmby ralph
Mongo's recording "Chango" or "Drums and Chants", was not strictly related to the lucumi culture, you have rumbas, which would have a strong congo presence, and you have and abakua on the album you mention, unless your talking about a different recording...if you ask me Mongo seems to have been influence more by abakua than anything...
Margarito (Rumba Guaguanco) 2:47******
Caumbia (Rumba Columbia) 3:10*******
Columbia (Rumba Columbia) 2:47******
Abacua Ecu Sagare (Nañigo) 2:58******
Yroco (Bembe) 3:03
Ochun (Bembe) 2:38
Bembe Kinigua (Batiri) 3:04
Druma Kuyi (Bata) 2:50
Consejo Al Vivi Bien (Guaguanco) 4:41******
Moforiborere (Ritmo Lucumi) 2:44
Oromiso (Ritmo Lucumi) 3:19
Congo Mania (Comparsa) 7:14********
if you look at the song list only six songs seem to be strictly lucumi or have titles that would would be a reference to the Yoruba, the other are abakua, conga, and rumba which is more of a palo/congo derivation....
also like JC said Afro Blue on Cal Tjaders "Latino" is in fact my favorite version as well
PEACE
Posted:
Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:24 pmby zaragemca
Tamboricua,please don't come to me with that stuff please,who told you that Mongo was trying to mix Arara,Abakua,and Yoruba,or Regla Ocha. if that would be the case I would know it before any other percussionist out side of Cuba,there is a second misunderstanding the tune is not Latin /Jazz neither,it is Afro/jazz, who was the one telling you that Bata is used in Arara/chanting, where did you witnessed somebody doing that,let me tell you something if Mongo go to any Morua telling them to give him an Ekon for recording,El bofeton que recibe,'the slap in the face', would have been sonorous.You don't even know the actititud of the people in the Carabali at that time,(1950's),of course you don't know what happened to Ignacio Pineiro, and Chano Pozo,( and they didn't asked for an Ekon, they did something of less ramification than that).And to finish we are talking about a song which I have played with Jazz/ players several times,and Dr. King Cobra Band.Dr. Zaragemca
Edited By zaragemca on 1127075148