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Posted: **Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:51 pm**

OK. I'll try and make this easy and forward...

I read music, SO.. the 2-3, 3-2, etc.. and all the conga tabliture is confusing as ####.

So real quick.
1) si or no?
2-3 clave: 1+[2]+[3]+4+ [1]+2[+]3+[4]+
3-2 clave: [1]+2[+]3+[4]+ 1+[2]+[3]+4+

2) Cuban - si or no?
2-3 clave: 1+[2]+[3]+4+ [1]+2[+]3+4[+]
3-2 clave: [1]+2[+]3+4[+] 1+[2]+[3]+4+

and this is the basis for everything else. my plan this weekend is to program these as midi files, and use them to practice with... and if anyone wants them - I'll share. but you guys are pros...

so if these are correct say: si, si
if not: no, no
if backward: al reves

gracias amigos. DH

Posted: **Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:45 pm**

Th clave patterns look right to me...your #2 "cuban" seems to be more commonly referred to as the "rumba" clave...#1 is the "son" clave

...interesting notation (in a good way)

BTW: Does anyone know of a recording which uses the 2-3 rumba clave? When I think about it, it seems I've only heard a 3-2 rumba clave.

Posted: **Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:03 pm**

:(

Edited By RumBa808 on 1169009313

Posted: **Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:23 am**

First I would recommend you pick up Rebecca Mueleons book
"Salsa Guide Book" it's very much worth the 20 bucks. She shows you everything about the basic understanding in all areas including the Clave....I would also recommend you learn to count the clave out. Start with the Son Clave, then Rumba clave . In her book she shows the difference. I don;t believe your configuration is correct the way u wrote it out, too confusing.... try 2/3 Son Clave- 1 (2 3) 4 (1) 2 (+)3 (4)...does this work for you?...JC JOHNNY CONGA...PS but check out Rebeccas book....

Posted: **Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:24 am**

Looking again at what u wrote is correct but too many + signs in between all that.....but I see what u did...JC JOHNNY CONGA... :;):

Posted: **Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:30 am**

Any record with Los Munequitos, Clave y Guagaunco, Yoruba Andabo are all groups that play 2/3 Rumba clave....JC JOHNNY CONGA... :;): Yes I know there are 3 beats in the first measure but they still call it 2/3 rumba clave hence the confusion at times as to which is the right clave....it's where the "accent" is. Now what a lot of people don;'t know is that the Cubans have been known to write the clave in one bar instead of 2. which also adds to "Clave confusion".....JC JOHNNY CONGA...

Posted: **Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:29 pm**

Denardoh,you need to check the 2/3 clave,You are just reversing the 3/2 clave that's were the confusion jump in.

Posted: **Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:43 pm**

thanks for all the comments.

i'll check out the Rebecca Mueleons book.

ok, and one more for the #### of it... and maybe this stuff is explained in the book, but the 'oye como va' clave...

[1] [2] 3 [+] 4 [+] / 1 2 [+] 3 [+] 4

what is this? i hear it quite a bit in the buena vista / afro cuban records.

thanks all... ill get this all eventually, actually, i'm starting lessons next week with a guy in philly, Pablo Batista... anyone know the name? I'm still new and don't really know a lot of names so.... anyhow, adios happy drummas

Posted: **Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:31 pm**

This is the purpose of the 3/2 clave [1] 2[x] 3 [4]- 1 [2] [3] 4... this is the purpose of the 2/3 clave [1] 2[x] 3 4 [x]1 [2] [3] 4 . They both would start in the 1 beat of the 4/4 time signature.

Edited By zaragemca on 1090954667

Posted: **Wed Jul 28, 2004 12:57 pm**

Hi amigos,

If i look to http://www.bembe.com, Dr clave informations about clave.
The last Denardoh clave is the ternary rumba clave written in 6/8 time (on 2 measure)
Zaragemca is the ternary rumba clave written in quarter notes triplets 4/4 time (on 2 measure)
Tell me if i'm wrong, it's a little complicated for me and maybe I'm wrong and I don't want to confuse anyone.

Colacao

Posted: **Wed Jul 28, 2004 1:20 pm**

I'm looking at what i wrotte and i' don't if it's right...Help!

Cola

Posted: **Wed Jul 28, 2004 1:55 pm**

[quote="Colacao"][/quote]
The last Denardoh clave is the ternary rumba clave written in 6/8 time (on 2 measure)
Zaragemca is the ternary rumba clave written in quarter notes triplets 4/4 time (on 2 measure)
Tell me if i'm wrong, it's a little complicated for me and maybe I'm wrong and I don't want to confuse anyone.

Forget all what I said, it's wrong, in fact it's the fist time I saw :

[1] [2] 3 [+] 4 [+] / 1 2 [+] 3 [+] 4

That's why I'm confuse. It's the first time I saw 4/2 clave

And for me :

[1] 2[x] 3 4 [x]1 [2] [3] 4

This is simply th 3/2 rumba clave on 2 measure

Anyway
Excuse me

Posted: **Wed Jul 28, 2004 3:17 pm**

yes, now I understand the JC and Zaragemca explanations. I know my brain is slow.

Posted: **Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:02 pm**

I do understand you confusion becouse those terms (ternary,and binary) were added from the western nomenclature(not from the cuban rumberos), for the distribution of the parametric timing.Ternary, is in relation of the Columbia(which is blending the 6/8 with the 4/4-Yoruba and Rumba patterns),and binary 4/4 when playing the Yambu,Guaguanco,or open Rumba,which do not incorporate the 6/8 timing and Yoruba patterns(bembe).

Edited By zaragemca on 1091034896

Posted: **Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:19 pm**

Hey Colacao,

I trust you that you got it, I just wanted to put this stuff forth for it's own sake.

x.x..x.x..x.x..

This last pattern that Denardoh typed was not something that would be refered to as clave in Cuba (not that I know of, at least), but a pattern that fits with 2/3 (usually son) clave. I know that in American interpretations this pattern is often used as a chord comping pattern - I've heard it called the "chop montuno" by some pianists and guitarists, and I think it's also used as a palitos (stick) pattern that is (I think)derived from cascara:

x.x.xx.xx.xx.x.x

all of this has been in 4/4, a duple meter, not a triple. 2/3 clave in 6/8 (a ternary or triple based time signature) would be as follows:

x.x..x.x.x..

The downbeat for this 6/8 comes every 3 pulses, while the downbeat for the earlier 4/4 comes every 4.

This is pretty straightforward I hope, but I'm not positive about the origin of the first pattern I typed myself, though I have heard it before. Any of the more experienced fellows know for sure where it came from?

Lee

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