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It seems to me that the conga patterns in the timba 2 section may be cruzado or out of clave. In particular look at pattern 3. It seems to me the opposite of how you would expect clave.

Let me know what you all think.

It is me personally that showed these rhythms on Congaplace's congabook. They have been shown me by two masters: Orlando Poléo and Roberto Vizcaïno.
I affirm that all rhythms of this page are in the common sense of the clave. The rhythm number 3 must be played as it is write. These are rhythms different of the salsa marcha.

Laurent, carefully take a listen to the Orlando Poleo Timba pattern #1 sound example. The clave is definitely played "cruzao" in the sound example.



Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio
http://www.rhythmweb.com/jorge

tamboricua wrote:Laurent, carefully take a listen to the Orlando Poleo Timba pattern #1 sound example. The clave is definitely played "cruzao" in the sound example.



Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio
http://www.rhythmweb.com/jorge

Not definitively Tamboricua! I'm sorry but I continue to say the clave is not cruzao in this example. To play the low conga on the part 2 of clave is current in this style. It is about a voluntary reversing. If it was to play a son montuno, I would agree but it is not a rhythm for son montuno or for the salsa. Other Cubans also showed it to me like that. Poléo showed it to me like that... So

Laurent Lamy wrote:

tamboricua wrote:Laurent, carefully take a listen to the Orlando Poleo Timba pattern #1 sound example. The clave is definitely played "cruzao" in the sound example.



Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio
http://www.rhythmweb.com/jorge

Not definitively Tamboricua! I'm sorry but I continue to say the clave is not cruzao in this example. To play the low conga on the part 2 of clave is current in this style. It is about a voluntary reversing. If it was to play a son montuno, I would agree but it is not a rhythm for son montuno or for the salsa. Other Cubans also showed it to me like that. Poléo showed it to me like that... So

Laurent, I'm not saying than by playing the tumba on the two side of the clave is necessary playing "cruzao". Now, if you were trying to show that playing the tumba on the two side of the clave is perfectly common in this Timba style, why did you play the tumba on the three side of the clave on the first sound example? Natural instinct? or voluntary reversing? Take a listen to the sound example #1.

As said by "Changuito" himself, the "father" and the "creator" of many of these Timba patterns is a tumbador named Juan Nogueras "El Wickly". Take a listen to NG la Banda, "En la Calle" cd, you will find all these patterns all over the place.

JG



Edited By tamboricua on Feb. 19 2003 at 16:43

??? I listened and I have just seen myself that you are perfectly right. I have it write correctly. But the file audio is cruzao. The file of the example 3 is correct as well as all others.
I correct that as quickly as possible!

The "father" and the "creator" of many of these "Timba" patterns is a tumbador named Juan Nogueras "El Wickly".
Take a listen to NG la Banda, "En la Calle" cd, you will find all these patterns all over the place.

I know this cd! Thank you

Hi Congaforum, hope all is well! While we are at the Timba topic. Be on the look out for three new conga books/dvd packages by cuban tumbador Tomás "Tomasito" Cruz. The books will be published by Mel Bay Publications. For those of you, who don't know who "Tomasito" is, he was the tumbador for Paulito F.G., while living in Cuba. He has been living in Miami for couple of years now. Still very active on the Timba movement playing with Orquesta Dan Den Miami, Manolín- El Médico, Celia Cruz, and Willie Chirino, among others. As part of Paulito's F.G. band, he did record on one of the most important Timba albums ever recorded, "Con la Conciencia Tranquila".

Book one will be leading with the "Fundamentals of the tumbadora", as it is teach these days in Cuba.

Book two will be covering many different Cuban rhythms.

Book three, the first book to be published, will be devoted totally to Timba conga playing.


Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio
http://www.rhythmweb.com/jorge



Edited By tamboricua on Feb. 19 2003 at 16:50

Thanks for this super info Tamboricua. Do you have the link? :0

No problem, a la orden. They are not available yet, but Vol. 3 will be available anytime soon. I'll keep you guys posted.
Here is the publishing company link:

http://www.melbay.com


Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio
http://www.rhythmweb.com/jorge



Edited By tamboricua on Feb. 19 2003 at 18:12

Thank you very much for looking into the clave issue for me. Tamboricua y Laurent, its folks like you that help the music by sharing with those of us who are less experienced. Thanks.

Also, I'm in the process of editing a folkloric video that Tomasito Cruz recorded here in the fall. Its got Bata, Rumba, Palo and a few others. As soon as its finished I'll let you know.

I'm glad to hear that Tomasito is getting a name for himself. Not only is he a world class percussionist but also shares freely with all those who want to know.

No problem, Leland! It is my pleasure. Definitely, I would love to check out that Tomasito video you mentioned. Please, keep me posted. I heard that Vol.3 will be available in a month or so. Tomás will be heading to Spain in March touring with Willie Chirino. Earlier this month he did finish filming the DVD parts for Vol.1 and Vol 2. Looking forward!


Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio
http://www.rhythmweb.com/jorge

Guest wrote:Thank you very much for looking into the clave issue for me. Tamboricua y Laurent, its folks like you that help the music by sharing with those of us who are less experienced. Thanks.

Also, I'm in the process of editing a folkloric video that Tomasito Cruz recorded here in the fall. Its got Bata, Rumba, Palo and a few others. As soon as its finished I'll let you know.

I'm glad to hear that Tomasito is getting a name for himself. Not only is he a world class percussionist but also shares freely with all those who want to know.

??? Thanks Leland! Keep in touch...

Guest wrote:Also, I'm in the process of editing a folkloric video that Tomasito Cruz recorded here in the fall. Its got Bata, Rumba, Palo and a few others. As soon as its finished I'll let you know.

Hola Leland, hope all is well! Any news on the "Tomasito" video? Looking forward!

All the best,

Jorge Ginorio

Guest wrote:Thank you very much for looking into the clave issue for me. Tamboricua y Laurent, its folks like you that help the music by sharing with those of us who are less experienced. Thanks.

Also, I'm in the process of editing a folkloric video that Tomasito Cruz recorded here in the fall. Its got Bata, Rumba, Palo and a few others. As soon as its finished I'll let you know.

I'm glad to hear that Tomasito is getting a name for himself. Not only is he a world class percussionist but also shares freely with all those who want to know.

Does the video of tomasito soon to be available?

Is this the same Tomas from Miami???.....If it is I wouldn't get too excited. Tomas is an OK player. I know him personally and to me he is an "overplayer". I was also in "Drummin" with him and he could barely play okonkolo parts for the Bata section i was in. so I would be a bit leary about anything he put out. I have him on video with me and Lazaro Alfonso ,original conga drummer for Irakere playing bata and congas. he has just been fortunate to land certain gigs in the Miami area. I have seen him play timbales and he is ok on them too. But nothing to write home about. That is my opinion if it is the same Tomas. I would like to see the video also,just to see if it is him. We got along ok but the Cuban musicians in Miami are a strange bunch of cats. that is my 2 cents.....At your Service...JC JOHNNY CONGA...