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Posted:
Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:05 pmby percomat
que bola ambias
i am finally registred. i really like this pages. its not many friends of mine that are congueros where i live. so its very good too read this questions-answers pages you got. anyway, i been hearing in havana that some people play the two open tres-dos strokes with the clave, i have also seen birger sulsbruck writing this. i usually play the two open strokes (havanero, not matanzero) in the second bar (if its a tree-two clave, i have actually not heard much rumba with two-tree clave). my question is therefore; is it possiblie to play the open strokes with the two first clavestrokes or will it be "se monta"?
Posted:
Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:59 pmby Conuno
Hi Percomat,
Put attention what I say: The RIGHT WAY to play the Tres-Dos in a guaguanco for 3x2 clave, is putting the two open hits in the side 2 of the clave,i.e the second bar.
However, we can NOT say that someone plays wrong if he plays the two open hits in the side 3 of the clave ! .... Even better the question is : Does he know what he is doing ?
If he doesn't know ...then he is playing wrong !!!
And the reason is more hystorical than musical. If you listen the recordings of the 70's, 80's and even in the 90's, you will find that many conga player (very famous players), mainly from New York and Puerto Rico, played... lets say... "crossed".
Only until (around) the beginning of 90's , those percussionists begun to play in the right way.....thus, the question is: why did they change ???
How did they discover that the conga pattern was crossed, can be explained due to the cultural (musical) interchanges that occurred at the end of the 80's. For example, remember that Batacumbele and other Groups were in Cuba for that time.
The thing is, even those recordings have the conga pattern crossed, the music and the arrangement sound quite good, therefore musically is acceptable !
Regards Conuno
Edited By Conuno on 1079035268
Posted:
Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:52 amby percomat
thanks for an interesting answer. when you are pointing at the late 80s and batacumbele, are you suggesting something like a re-definition of frames concerning guaguanco? i dont know too much about this situation, but im thinking about the songo evolution, which i understand containts lots og guaguanco, and the puerto rican influence, and maybe even a new approach concerning technique and changuito and giovanni, that i think of as revolutionary in a way (even if players like el nino alfonso seems to do some of the same stuff, like giovannis velocity, and the use of the palm-tip, the paddling technique?? i dont know if he uses more arms though).. sorry to bother you with this questions, but this kind of discussions, which i can relate to playing a tumbadora, technique and forms, really fascinates me..
Posted:
Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:36 pmby martin
having the tres dos on the '3' side of the clave was the old way in cuba. Listen to old los munequitos de matanzas records.
Posted:
Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:18 pmby percomat
is it possible to categorize the "crossed" guaguanco as a traditional, and the other as more modern? what about the guarapachanguero, where they seems to leave the open salidorstrokes on tree-and in both bars unplayed, but still do the basstroke on the second clave stroke (the two-and in the first bar- the 3-side) and the open in the second bar. like for example rumberos de cuba play. in this case that would be some kind of a postmodern approach, ehh.. by the way, i found an article which contains rumba lyrics translated called; decima and rumba: iberian formalism in the heart of afrocuban song. for those of us who does not speak to much spanish but love la rumba..
(ps. what albums, what year, does los munequitos play like that. is the period with cha-cha, or later? and do they just play the first stroke here too, like the matanzero we know today?)
Edited By percomat on 1079097670
Posted:
Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:25 pmby Conuno
Hi,
I will try to answer.
- when you are pointing at the late 80s and batacumbele, are you suggesting something like a re-definition of frames concerning guaguanco?
R// No, the guaguanco has been played always in the right way in Cuba. What I say is, that due to the cultural interchange the error was found.
The songo is a clear example of the result of that interchage, after that Batacumbele begins to propagate the rhythm and of course that implies its evolution.
But notice, that most of the possible conga patterns for songo (at least for 2 congas), had been already played by Monolo, the conga player of Van Van.
About percussion the a remarkable evolution has occurred in the drums, i.e. nowdays you can find many styles to play songo in the drums. Good example El Negro Hernadez among other.
As El Negro said, the history of the tumbadora has been broken in two: before Giovanni (AG) after Giovanni (DG) 
that is true !
To conclude I use to say that there are two techniques (but may be I'm wrong):
1. From Giovanni: Drums technique applied to the tumbadoras (paradiles, rediments,etc )
2. From Chaguito: Palm Tips "the floating hand", with all its application (this is an evolucion of the technique of Tata Güines, el Niño, among others).
Regards Conuno
Posted:
Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:29 pmby Conuno
Hi Matin,
I would like to know which muñequitos' album has such guaguanco?
Regard Conuno
Posted:
Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:36 pmby Conuno
The guarapachanguero is another thing. As far as I know it is a kind of guangunco thought for 4 bars. Therefore you can no repeat the Tres Dos each two bar.
Anyway I don't have so much information about it, and I would like to get more information if you have. (patterns ?).
The guarapachaguero is borning !
The references that I have are : Yoruba Andabo, Pacho Quinto, Puntilla.
Conuno
Posted:
Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:24 pmby percomat
i was told by a italien i met in havana that the guarapachanguero is developed by los ehinitos, which is a family that live in barrio quevida or something. i also talked with the salidor player in los rumberos de cuba (by the way a great concert at the third floor in teatro nacional), who didnt play the open (the asking/calling) open strokes at tree-and. he said it was this style they did, but i dont know any detailed patterns except from this missing strokes. the basstroke on to-and in the first stroke was also very obvius. i have also heard groups like iyorosu ba (i dont think its correct spelled, but its the first band that play at callejon de hamel-at 12) do something like this style..
by the way, i think pancho is seek now 
i have never heard him play, it was just a friend of him that said so. how does he play techniqualmente? i heard he does lots of solo work, with tree tambores and one caja?? and of course that he is the founder of yoruba andabo which is my favoritegroup..and who is puntilla?)